Learn From It

Amen. Great reminders for us all.

"that it ends with you"

I wish, but for every one of me there are dozens of nasty useless Andrew Sullivans running around telling everyone off for being unreasonable as they promote bare backing and other political idiocies. Damn so that's why I feel so negative today! It's not like you can go around saying Happy World AIDS Day!

Perhaps AIDS wouldn't be as rampant as it is, were the gays to exercise better judgement and responsibility with safe sex.

You appear to have a very narrow view of an extrodinarily large issue. While I agree with you that gay men knowing about the risk, and actually putting on a condom are two very different things. And the fact that some gay men, even some that I know, do not practice safe sex is a problem. However, in my most humble opinion, this is not about gay men, this is about AIDS.

As a newly out gay man this issue has been at the forefront of my mind for quite some time. Many people I have met are regurlary tested and have urged me to do the same. I am paranoid about being safe, in most every respect. The last thing I want to have happen is to get infected, or as it were, infect somone else.

And while we are on the subject of gay men...

What about the countless women and children that are raped each day in Africa and South America because infected men think that having sex will cure them? How about the lack of knowledge about HIV and AIDS from the peoples in second and third world countries? Would focusing on the sex acts of irresponsible gay men help them?

The fact is that over 25% of adults in Africa are living and doing their best to cope with HIV/AIDS. While in sharp contrast only just over 1% of people in North America live with HIV/AIDS. Now, by all means I am not trying to down-play such an issue, but if the most cases in these such areas are women, does your theory of it being gay men are the ones that most commonly transmit this disease hold?

My heart sincerely goes out to the ones I know that have been living and coping with HIV and AIDS. They are great friends and I hope everyday brings us closer to a cure. But you cannot limit this to California, Texas, or New York. It is a global issue, and although posting flyers and billboards all over our cities about the dangers of AIDS may help a few people, it won't make any difference globally. This is a worldwide issue and should be treated as one.

"Holding", I assume you have SOME references, at least, to back up your assertions, because, according to the CA Dept of Health Services, African-American women are the fastest growing group of seroconversions.

We may worship black divas and some of us may emulate fierce black women, but I *assure* you, I *promise* you, it's not the "gay community" that is infecting these women.

Now, are you going to produce some references or are you just going to point fingers baselessly?

Kevin, congratulations on coming out and being yourself.

And thank you for contributing here.

GodOfBiscuits,
You seem a bit too defensive for this discussion. Understandably perhaps. If you'd rather I just left, then so be it. If you'd like to discuss it further, then lets.

Why is it you doubt anything I have written and if so, what specifically?

You seem to have missed the point entirely. As I recall he simply asked for where you are getting your statistics, not once did I hear him say "leave now."

Also, if you did not read, the fastest growing group of AIDS infected peoples are African American women, mostly those in their mid 20's and 30's.

I will summarize, according to www.prweb.com, African American Women account for approx. 70% of all new AIDS cases. One out of every 160 is HIV+ while only 1 in 3000 white women.

People in this modern age tend to focus on what they can see. If you live in Texas, you only see the problems in Texas, California in California, et cetera. From what I can tell, you simply aren't looking at the bigger picture.

If you have questions or simply want to yell at me, my email is in the link in my name. Otherwise, as GodOfBiscuits requested, please provide sources to back up your findings.

Deep. I bet they never thought of that.

Actually, "Holding", I would really like you to produce references to back up what you're saying. Start with that.

Defensive? You're goddamned right I'm defensive, because you're on the offensive, making baseless statements about large groups of people all at once.

So? References, please?

You seem to have missed the point entirely. As I recall he simply asked for where you are getting your statistics, not once did I hear him say "leave now."

Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the tone behind one's words? I am not. There's more to communication than the written word.

Also, if you did not read, the fastest growing group of AIDS infected peoples are African American women, mostly those in their mid 20's and 30's.

I read that, but am unsure how it plays a role with gay males and unsafe sex? Please explain.

People in this modern age tend to focus on what they can see. If you live in Texas, you only see the problems in Texas, California in California, et cetera. From what I can tell, you simply aren't looking at the bigger picture.

That's a contradictory statement. You impatiently assert that I am scopelocked while you yourself cite stats from California only.

I'm still curious what statements of mine you challenge. How can you expect me to provide references when you don't specify what you refute?

Respectfully await your reply.

I also stated earlier that there is an existing problem with gay males and practicing unsafe sex. Yes it does cause a problem and yes it does spread HIV. However, what I am simply stating is that gay men arent everything.

If I stated stats from California that was my mistake in mis-reading data. However, you have yet to provide references to your claims as well. I was not the one who originally requested you state your sources, GodOfBiscuits was.

What I don't like in your post is that you simply state that there is a problem with gay men, how gay men don't do this, and gay men aren't responsible with that. That Sir is what I have a problem with. And I will reiterate, "gay men" are not the entirety of the HIV/AIDS epidemic.

If you would, please state where you found that information.

Eyeroller,
Sarcasm aside, I'm certain most have "thought" about it. But thinking and doing aren't the same, are they?

Male to male contact has always been the most prominent courier of HIV/AIDS. My questions for you, Eyeroller, are these:

At what point will the gay community take safe sex seriously? How many more have to die?

"Holding My Own", it was *World* AIDS Day, not gay-men-in-America AIDS Day.

I'm sure you can find any number of reasons for wholesale judgment of gay men as a monoclonal group, but shouldn't you be interested in whatever the fuck WORKS to stop HIV and leave it at that?

GodOfBiscuits,
I realize it was World Aids day, but aren't we to think globally and act locally? As for judging others, we are all guilty of that. One glimpse of this blog offers no different.

What I want you to understand, is the impact your culture is having on others. The rampant spread of Hiv/Aids amongst gay males is not where the buck stops.

Are there other groups that need to be addressed? Of course. Hetero, Bi, drug use, etc. also play a role in this dillemma. But the fact remains, that gay males are and always have been the courier of most infections.

It's time that you were frank with yourself and your community and faced the facts. It's high time for the gay man to take this issue more seriously.

As for being interested in what stops HIV, of course I am. I pray for a cure. But have you ever heard people say "stop the bleeding"? Before you can treat a wound, you must stop the bleeding. You have to prioritize.

The HIV dillemma is no different. While we research a cure, those that are at risk need to conduct themselves with more regard. We need to stem the infestation of our poulations now, not later.

Why is it you refuse to post my reply to Kevin?

I didn't refuse anything. The comment never showed up in MT.

On a related note, why do you refuse to provide references for your assertions about infection rates and gay men?

I did two days ago and you chose not to show it.

Perhaps I owe you an apology. I assumed you did it out of spite aince we disagree on the matter. It's probably just an honest mistake on your behalf.

After I pressed the POST function a screen came on that said thanks you for your comment, but to curb maliscous comments all comments are subject to review prior to being posted.

I'll say it again. I never saw it. It never arrived in the MT database.

Publish it again, if you like, and also send me an email containing the comment and I'll post it myself, if that's what it takes.

Now, where are the references to the assertions you made? I insist. Either provide objective references to back up your statements or withdraw them as baseless.

If you fail to do either, well, that speaks its own volumes, huh.

What speaks volumes is how you've conveniently misplaced a well thought and written retort to both your and Kevin’s inquiries. If I'm mistaken, my apologies.

Perhaps you're not familiar with working computers and the net. Anyhow, I will rewrite my statement and provide links for your perusal.

Curios though, since both Kevin and yourself have avoided answering me to this point, what specifically do you contest that I have written?

Let me make sure I have this right:

- you make assertions about gay men and HIV transmission
- you dodge owning up to them for a while
- you then turn and accuse those who challenge your assertions of "misplacing" your original argument
- then insist that *I* do the legwork for you in scraping your assertions out of your own writing.

To the last item: go look for yourself! Look at every blanket statement you've made about gay men and HIV transmission and safer sex and go and FIND THE NUMBERS TO BACK UP THOSE ASSERTIONS.

This is a typical attack strategy of the American Right: make stupid-ass broad statements, then insist that others clean up after you. And while they're cleaning up—and you know us "intellectual elite" folks, always needing a clean definition with nettlesome things like evidence and research to back them up—you move on to the next stupid-ass broad statements.

Clean up your own mess.

I've dodged nothing. It's you that "misplaced" the links and cites I provided. Easy enough when you hold the power to the edit button, huh?

I there has been any dodging at all, it's been on your behalf. Three times now I have asked you what specifically you contest that I have written yet you adamantly refuse to specify.

Why?

Is it becuase you know I'll prove you wrong? I have several statistics and several cites awaiting you as soon as you'll specify what you contest.

Exhibit some strength of character and state what you contest. It's all I ask.

Strength of character?

if you already have statistics and cites awaiting me, then you already know what is contested, don't you?

Why are you afraid to say it?

Humble pie is good for everyone.

How about those statistics you have awaiting me?

Or were you lying about that?

And if you weren't lying, why are you asking what the question is if you already have your answer prepared?

I have answers prepared to defend anything I've said in this thread.

So what specifically do you challange?

Give me all you've got. All those "statistics and cites" that "await" me.

Valid URLs will be fine. I'll go read them myself.

You want all the cites for HIV/Aids?

How about we get a bit more specific. There are nearly 81,000,000 sites for you to peruse on google.

I'm done with you. You're an obstructionist just making trouble.

You never had a set of citations waiting there, in support of your stupid assertions about gay men and HIV transmission.

You don't even remember saying them.

Bye, now!

How's that education coming along?

Avoiding this thread now? I expected as much.

You're not a cooperative person, are you? I have stated time and time again in this thread that I'd be willing to provide any cite to defend any statement I have made.

Kevin, like you, is afraid to come right out and say what it is he refutes. Unlike you, he did inquire though where I found data that gay males are responsible for the majority of infection rates in America.

So I'll post one of the links I shared on saturday that was saved by your host but somehow "lost" later when it's time for review came.

The Center for Disease Control is a good start for you to educate yourself.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#hivest

Take specific note of the exposure categories.

If you could read, which at this point I don't believe you can, I was the one that first cited the references to black women being the fastest growing HIV/AIDS infected group, not GodOfBiscuits. And no, it wasn't heresay either. I mis-stated data and I believe I already apologized. If you'd like me to cite sources again, here you go.

These are stats taken from www.unaids.org for the end of 2004 in Sub-Saharan Africa. Adults and children (0-49) living with HIV, 25.4 million. Women (15-49) living with HIV, 13.3 million. (Some basic math will prove mine and GodOfBiscuits earlier statment). Adults and children newly infected with HIV in 2004, 3.1 million. Adult and child deaths due to AIDS in 2004, 2.3 million.

Is that real enough for you? Note, that I am now focusing on somewhere other than our own beloved country. As i have stated many times now, this isnt just about Americans. And now you assume that we as gay men, are the ones souly responsible for spreading this disease. We are the ones that go rape young women in Africa are we?

And that part where you lump us all together as a culture is incorrect. We don't have annual meetings, if you might recall, we are normal people living normal lives.

And for your information, I am a Christian, and GodOfBiscuits is not a hater. You seem to be so intent to make this man out to be something that he is not. [sarcasm] So go break out your bible and make yourself feel better, have a nice cup of coffee as far away from us evil gay men as you can. [/sarcasm]

"If you could read, which at this point I don't believe you can, I was the one that first cited the references to black women being the fastest growing HIV/AIDS infected group, not GodOfBiscuits."

Good grief. Do I really need to recap this thread for you? I stated that gay men in America were the largest group of couriers for the aids infection.

You then went off on some tangent about coming out and how scared you are about contracting Aids. Not that I blame you. You then explained how my view is narrow, that this is a WORLD issue and passed on some heresay about Africa and Aids.

Then GodofBiscuits piped in, NOT YOU, to pass the buck with heresay about how I am mistaken and that it's African American Women in California that are the problem.

"These are stats taken from www.unaids.org for the end of 2004 in Sub-Saharan Africa. Adults and children (0-49) living with HIV, 25.4 million. Women (15-49) living with HIV, 13.3 million. (Some basic math will prove mine and GodOfBiscuits earlier statment). Adults and children newly infected with HIV in 2004, 3.1 million. Adult and child deaths due to AIDS in 2004, 2.3 million."

About time one of you actually walked the talk cited a reference and provided a link.

Afica? Yeah, that sucks. Really. Glad I don't live there and be honest - feel that there is little I can do to make a difference.

But for you and GodOfBiscuits, your concerns would serve the community far more if you were to focus locally, not globally. This isn't Africa, it's America where your kind are the most common carriers of the infection, not black women.

I hope that you are cautious with your partners and practice safe sex.

Why not focus globally? As I have stated, America is not the biggest problem here. And you have the audacity to say that we finally did what you wanted. And yes you still haven't provided links to back up your claims of gay men are the primary group spreading this disease?

Boy you are blind aren't you. One, I haven't replied because I did not want to get into the pointless debate I knew was coming. As for your "link". Did you not notice that that is for the United States only? I do believe I stated that this is a world wide problm. You speak of being scopelocked, try broadening your horizons to countries other than this one.

After being called out, you finally decide to make an appearance?

I stated America was my reference in the beginning of the thread. From the very begining of your and GOB's denial I've stated that one should Think Globally and Act locally.

GodofBiscuits cited stats from California, and THEN, and only then did you mistakenly use GodOfBiscuits stas from California to bolster your own worldwide stats.

You might want to review the thread, it's obvious that you've forgotten how it evolved.

Now back to the subject. I stated that gay males are the largest couriers of HIV. I've provided the cites to prove it.

HIV Exposure:
Male-to-male sexual contact - 17,969
Male-to-male sexual contact and injection drug use 1,877 - 1,877

Heterosexual contact - 13,260

Now where would the bi-sexuals fit in?

Anyhow, I'm right and you're wrong.

Male-to-male sexual contact, as reported by health agencies is NOT the same thing as:

At what point will the gay community take safe sex seriously? How many more have to die?

What makes you think that all those infections are from out-and-proud gay men living the gay culture?

And how about some statistics from more recently than 2003?

And what about the trends? Is "male to male sexual contact" tending towards a smaller and smaller percentage of new infections?

Or did you think that suddenly the entire world would wake up and start using condoms instantly and always?

You're really not very good at statistics and science, are you?

Oh, and in your vast and deep search for data, did you find any data anywhere that contradicted your statements?

Whenever I make a statement that can be challenged, I always search for sources that might prove me wrong. I start with that, in fact, and, in not finding any, I go and find statistics and sources to back up what I say.

Do you do that?

You also stated:
What I want you to understand, is the impact your culture is having on others. The rampant spread of Hiv/Aids amongst gay males is not where the buck stops.

Where is your data for the impact on other groups? Do you have deep data on how HIV squeaks out of the "gay community" and into other communities?

Oh, look at that, I just listed the assertions you made and had no data for.

Trick is, making such broad and inflammatory statements should have been memorable to you in the first place. Since they weren't, I have to wonder what kind of person you really are and why you're really here.

Just to mix it up with people? Just to feel the gratification of seeing your own bigoted words in print?

Denial.

As I expected you are in complete denial of reality.

I have yet to see you produce anything other than hot air. Where are your stats? Where are the contradictions that you have found?

They aren't there, are they?

FACT is, gay males are responsible for more HIV transmissions than any other group in America.

Prove otherwise.

FACT is, gay males are responsible for more HIV transmissions than any other group in America.

"FACT"??? Where? You have yet to provide any facts. It's not incumbent on ME to chase after your wild-ass assertions and prove YOU wrong.

You have the "FACT" at your disposal, obviously...so produce the evidence to back it up.

FACT is, gay males are responsible for more HIV transmissions than any other group in America.

"FACT"??? Where? You have yet to provide any facts. It's not incumbent on ME to chase after your wild-ass assertions and prove YOU wrong.

And this statement is different to what you originally said, which was:

What I want you to understand, is the impact your culture is having on others. The rampant spread of Hiv/Aids amongst gay males is not where the buck stops.

And we're all still waiting for you to produce the evidence.

""FACT"??? Where? You have yet to provide any facts. It's not incumbent on ME to chase after your wild-ass assertions and prove YOU wrong."

I guess you weren't able to comprehend the fugures provided on the link to the Center for Disease control?

Here's a copy and paste for you:

AIDS Cases by Exposure Category

Following is the distribution of the estimated number of diagnoses of AIDS among adults and adolescents by exposure category. A breakdown by sex is provided where appropriate.

Male-to-male sexual contact 17,969
Injection Drug Use 9,449
Male-to-male sexual contact and injection drug use 1,877
Heterosexual contact 13,260
Other* 557

There it is. Do the math. Follow the link.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#hivest

Gay Males ARE in FACT the greatest courier of HIV/AIDS in America today.

Exactly..."In America"...that was my first point that I made, this is not about America, this is about the world. Good day.

"that was my first point that I made, this is not about America"

Then why did you and GodOfBiscuits cite heresay about African american Women in California?

As I've always said, think globally - act locally.

Your actions as a culture are having a far reaching affect on america as a whole and consequently, the world.

You are infuriating aren't you. I provide the links to back up my statements and you say that I haven't. And when was the last time you went to an AIDS ward and helped out the paients there. When was the last time you "acted locally?"

Jeff ~ sorry for the length :)

Holding My own,

I've been watching this debate for some time now, and you have managed to avoid most things asked of you in regards to statistics, your intended meanings, your true motivations, etc.

As a nurse practitioner doing a PhD in the clinical management of HIV, specific to populations with access to health care issues, as well as two years practicing medicine in sub Saharan Africa, I can speak with some authority on this subject.

You seem to imply that your motivation is the end of this disease and that bringing up gay men and unsafe sex is going to "speak" to the problem. Let me state clearly I think your motivation has nothing to do with combating HIV in gay men, African American women, or anyone else. But let me also state that even if it was, the methods you want to employ, and the tone of your discourse would serve to do nothing more than fuel the epidemic. if you think that was a somewhat masked assertion that you are contributing to the problem, no it wasn't. It was in no way masked, as I meant every word of it. Let me tell you why.

I implicate many individuals, and many organizations, policy's, cultures, and even AIDS service organizations in the continued infection rates we see with this pandemic. Everyone shares a responsibility here. In 2005, I would agree with you that it most certainly is a problem that gay men are seeing the infection rates that we are seeing. that applies if we are the leading demographic, or the last. twenty five years of a disease that has decimated our community, and continued infection is still a problem. A huge one.

Does that not make you look for sub text? Because for me, there is something wrong with that equation. The easy answer is of course that we are hedonistic sexual beasts that don't care about anything or anyone except the next fuck. In some cases true. Like it is true for your orientation. Presuming you are straight of course. But for a community to come through 25 years of mass death on a scale of war level (if you consider the population base of gay men relative to infection rate), stigma on a level that was unprecedented, and a safer sex message campaign, that without intention has been in ways telling a culture of men that the sex they have is shame based, not natural, and at it's core deadly.

Now you may agree, I won't be surprised. but I ask you, is that not a recipe for atypical responses to the stressor one is trying to avoid? In no way am i making excuses, as no doubt that will be your refute of my point. What am i doing is pointing out that to understand how to fix the problem, one must understand it is more than simply not enjoying wearing a condom. It is a rather layered response that having an understanding of both human sexuality, and human behavior under threat or fear, is required.

Where does this place you? it places you as contributing to a disease if all you have to offer is blame, more stigma, more attempts to deny the reality of what HIV is around the world. And that is very much more than a disease. It has been used as a tool of discrimination and a tool of separating the desirable elements from those that are not worthy. If you do not actively protest against that, then please do nothing. But if you add to that dynamic, which on this forum you demonstrate that you do nothing but, then you sir, are part of the problem.

Steve O'Brien

Well stated, thank you for your input.

Holding My own,

A point about interpetation of statistics. The ones you cite are accurate in so far as overall amount of individuals diagnosed with AIDS, as seperated by demographic of predictive infectious event. That is very telling, as "diagnosed with AIDS' is a very different clinical picture than a seropositive test for non specific antibodies to HIV.

If we are playing the math game here, and frankly I don't understand why we are, then a diagnosis with AIDS vs. infection with HIV would yield very different numbers, as well as somewhat different demographic picture. As well, we estimate that one in four Americans who test HIV positive do not know they are infected. This actually does not fall on the ratio of infecteded equation, rather it is in the heterosexual population that you find a majority of those testing positive to be completely surprised they had even been at risk.

In terms of saying tha tgay men are the fastest growing pool of infected, no they aren't. That would be heterosexual women of minority descent, followed by gay men, followed by white heterosexual women, then all others. Gay men have actually shown a slowing of infection, even though they are, on a national scale, the demographic which sees the largest pool of infected.

The point of these stats is in referncing numbers, I don't know how that speaks to your assertions of moral culpability.

Holding, yo'ure changing your tune, now. You contended that gay males are responsible for the spread of HIV infections. YOu actually go beyond that to say it's gay culture's/community's fault that HIV is spreading to the rest of humanity.

Yes, the numbers for "male to male contact" are the highest as of the 2004 numbers. But how many of those are part of the "gay community" you like to lambaste? How many of those wig-wearin', assless-chaps-favoring, dicksucking, buttfucking faggots are out there infecting African American women and other women?

More likely, it's the ones who buy into the mainstream's notion that male-to-male sexual contact is shameful, and so they hide it, and pretend it never happened. Same goes for drug use.

And if it never happened, then why think about protecting your gf or wife against something that never was?

You want to help stop HIV? Stop stigmatizing gay men. Stop stigmatizing sex at all. Just STOP.

"Why not focus globally?"

You expect to act globally when you can't get it right locally? Good luck with that.

"And yes you still haven't provided links to back up your claims of gay men are the primary group spreading this disease?"

Are you even on the same thread as the rest of us? I posted it last saturday but there was a "technical error". I reposted the gist of it again on THIS thread:
Posted by: Holding My Own at 07 december 2005 12:09

Now where are YOUR links that prove otherwise? Try to put something on the table other than GodOfBiscuits heresay.

"How many of those wig-wearin', assless-chaps-favoring, dicksucking, buttfucking faggots are out there infecting African American women and other women?"

Unbelievable, your whole defense is built upon passing the buck to African-American women stats you cite but won't share the link to?

Wait, I was wrong.

"You want to help stop HIV? Stop stigmatizing gay men."

Now you want to pass the buck onto everyone else, including me? At what point does the gay male take responsibility for his own actions?

It's time you people stopped pointing the fingers at others and took a good hard look at yourselves. It's not me that forces you to have unprotected sex anymore than it's me that forces the heroin addict to put a needle in his veins or pimps the crack whore on the corner who never gets tested.

We're all in this together and it's time for you people to own up to the travesty that's unfolding.

Safe sex. Safe partners. Get it?

Wait....are you Nancy Reagan?

What was the efficacy of "Just Say No", anyway?

Oh, right..I forgot...everyone quit drugs when Her Royal Redness pimped a throw-away slogan.

My bad.