Learn From It

Pat Robertson is a old man and his mind is slipping. I don't think he is dangerous because I don't believe anyone takes him serious, except maybe the elderly who are too feeble to be a threat to anyone. Robertson's comments are in direct contrast to the teachings of Christ. He has been asked to apologize before, sometimes he has sometimes he has skated, yet he continues to not use wisdom in his words. Just ignore him and steal his thunder.

As for O'Reilly, I don't watch him.

I've posted a clairification at the beginning of my previous post specifically calling for Robertson to retract his statement and apologize. I did the same thing when he talked about asassinating Hugo Chavez. I'm sorry that you haven't seen Christians who are more than willing to speak out against this kind of ridiculous behavior. I know there are plenty of us who do regularly -- we are ashamed and outraged that people like Pat Robertson are the public face of Christianity to so many people. Just out of curiosity, what part of the country do you live in (assuming you live in the US)? My experience is that such attitudes are very regional. Also, it may be that many of us with the time and means to speak out are relatively young (I'm 21) and so are not given attention like Robertson. However, we are here and doing what we can to marginalize people like Robertson so that they aren't dangerous any more.

To Peggy et-al yes I agree that Pat Is a decrepid(?!?did I spell that right)old foger who panders to the elderly but lets remember "senior citizens are the single biggest voting bloc in this country" never underestimate their influence(remember Grey Davis' campaign director's seemingly innocent statement during the last guberantorial election-"Ahh-they're just a bunch of old people who listen to talk radio"-well,guess what?they are QUITE vociferous,and thanks to cable,satellite,etc. Pat is in just about every living room in America.

There are those of us who are Christian and think that Pat Robertson and those like him are idiots. And we talk about it (check out my blog -- standingoutinthecold.blogspot.com, its my main article right now). Somehow people like Pat Robertson are always so loud that no one seems to hear us though. So, its not that there aren't any of us who are speaking out against him, its just that you never hear about us. And now you have, so you can rest assured that we are here. Of course, I'm assuming that you wouldn't put me into the same category as Pat Robertson. I don't think you would based on this post, but thats about all I have to go on.

No, of course I'm not lumping someone like you (insofar as your comment here, and your blog would suggest) with Pat Robertson.

But, you're calling him an idiot, implying that he's not dangerous.

Which he is. But more importantly, he's dangerous. Call for him, as a christian, to retract what he said and apologize–as a good christian is supposed to.

Don't just call him an idiot as if your simple personal dismissal of him as a simple person of the earth suffices.

M. G. "Pat" Robertson has achieved national and international recognition as a philanthropist and humanitarian. Much of his public humanitarian works have been carried out through Operation Blessing International Relief and Development Corporation, which he founded in 1978. Operation Blessing International is a nonprofit organization that provides humanitarian aid in the form of food, clothing, medicine, and financial assistance to help disadvantaged people and disaster victims throughout the world.

Operation Blessing has provided nearly $500 million -- which includes Operation Blessing donations and matching funds from other organizations -- to assist nearly 130 million people in 50 states and 71 foreign countries.

In 1996, Operation Blessing completed the conversion of a Lockheed L1011 airliner into a flying hospital which brings state-of-the-art medical assistance to remote areas of the world.

Numerous presidents, governors, state legislators and mayors have recognized Robertson's humanitarian efforts with citations.

Founded on November 14, 1978 Robertson set up Operation Blessing to help struggling individuals and families by matching their needs for items such as clothing, appliances, vehicles with donated items from viewers of The 700 Club, Robertson's daily television program. However, as requests for assistance poured in, he and the board of the Christian Broadcasting Network, Inc. (CBN) decided to make a financial commitment to assist Operation Blessing out of CBN's general fund.

Mr. Robertson has made mistakes in some of the things he has said. But he has done so much good. People are always going to make mistakes especially ones that are doing as much for humanity as Mr. Robertson. Those who never make mistakes are those who never do anything.

My question to you Mr. God of Biscuits is what have you done recently to help humanity?

If "God" actually existed and wanted Intelligent Design crap taught in schools, wouldn't he have made all of those voters support it rather than evolution? I am so tired of people pushing their particular mythological beliefs onto others. How many atheists are out there going door-to-door or appearing on television shows threatening people with doom?

If "God" actually existed and wanted Intelligent Design crap taught in schools, wouldn't he have made all of those voters support it rather than evolution? I am so tired of people pushing their particular mythological beliefs onto others. How many atheists are out there going door-to-door or appearing on television shows threatening people with doom?

Well, to start, Auntie Brenda, I'm not a fucking hypocrite whose voice reaches millions of people who have already given over their own spines in order to be abject followers.

How about you?

You didn't answer Brenda's question.

Is anyone surprised?

Is it a valid question, hoody?

If so, why? And what's your answer, hypocrite?

Still dodging the question. . .

Have you stopped beating your wife, hoody?

It is a simple question and it is valid. Mr. Robertson has made mistakes and some big ones, but he has also done mighty big things to help humanity. No one is perfect and unless you are doing as much for humanity as he is I don't see where you have the right to call him a hypocrite.
I will answer your question put to me:
I tithe 10% of my gross (not net) income to the church I attend. I give another 5% of my gross income to TBN so the gospel can reach others around the world. I currently have a family of 5 survivors from NO staying with me until they can return home. They are wonderful people by the way.
3 nights a week and on Saturday I visit elderly people that are shut in's and help them in anyway that I can, grocery shopping, doing their hair, trimming their nose, ear hair (the men) shave them (men again), help them write letters, or pay their bills.
During the Spring, Summer, I purchase blankets, undergarments, shocks, etc. so that when Winter comes around I can give them out to the homeless that don't want to go into shelters (for their own reasons) I also buy them food when they are hungry, take them to a restaurant and sit down and eat and fellowship with them. I won't give them money because I don't want to be buying their booze or drugs. You have no idea how much just listening and talking to someone can help lift their spirits. On Thanksgiving and Christmas I volunteer at the shelter to help serve Holiday meals to the homeless.
I didn't do as much for others when I was younger, I was busy with my career and raising my daughter. But she is grown now and I keep myself busy helping as many people as I can. Nothing can fill a person up with happiness as much as helping someone else. I wish I had understood that when I was younger.
I'm 53 now but I feel I still have plenty of time to do as much as I can.
I have found that you just can't out give God or people in need. The blessings from giving and helping others just keeps coming back to you. Try it and you just might find you won't have time to be so judgmental and full of complaints of those who are doing their best to help humanity even if they do slip and makes mistakes from time to time.
I didn't realize it was your Birthday. Happy Belated Birthday to you, I hope you have a wonderful special day.

Still, you refuse to answer the question.

It's not my birthday. That was sarcasm, as hoody is a long-standing, short-ranging, intellectually-middling, religiously-fanatical (though probably not to you) contrarian around these parts.

I'm trying to understand what you think makes your question "valid", and the only thing I can come up with is that you're putting a price tag (in goods and services) on the right to stand on a very high bully pulpit and spew hateful words that have long-reaching ill effects.

Are you saying that if I raise $500M for charity, I can stand up in a public forum masquerading as a humble christian and direct the fist of god on those who supposedly hate Him?

Is that what you're saying, Auntie Bren?

Yes, hoody. I refuse to answer any more than I already have.

Because it's my business, it's irrelevant and it's a strawman. And because I can't wait to see what you THINK you know about me.

Now, "hoody", who won't even offer his first name to the world, much less anything else about himself except that he's an abject papist follower, why are you here attempting to assist someone in defending Pat Robertson?

Is it my birthday and you're here gladly making my point for me?

Brenda,

While it is admirable that you are grooming and helping the elderly, providing other forms of help to the less fortunate, I'd like to ask you something. What does the recipient of your charity have to do to garner that service. Listen to your theologic illogic?

Please don't try to say that that doesn't form a major facet of the church and its "good work". Providing need where it is absent IS moral, and it IS worthy, it becomes nothing short of cruel and abusive when it is predicated by having to endure your personal magical thinking paradigms.

For the record, kudos to you for your extensive helping nature that you gratiouitsly wax on about above. But before your very easy to predict response of "what have you done for humanity", I will tell you. Among many things, I normally take two to three months a year, unpaid, to practice medicine in Africa, as the HIV crisis is just a little bit of a health concern in a continent that has over 50% infection rate.

You may even do things to help there too. Like push for abstinence only education, condoms as a last resort, and "social teaching", re. religious indoctrination. Well that sounds very cute, but I've seen it in action. How is the thirteen year old hooker who supports her siblings as her parents are both dead of HIV (current staistics support that assertion 9/10 times), and sells her body, in any way gaining a benifit by abstinence education or lack of condom availabiltiy? Oh, right! Silly me. She doesn't count does she?

Brenda this may be a bitter little pill to swallow, but in Africa women don't often have sexual autonomy. In fact most who get HIV, get it through unchoiced sex. Please apply your paradigms here and show us your "logic".

Thanks,

Steve

God of Biscuits, yes I was saying that unless you are putting yourself out there to help humanity any way you can, then you don't have the right to bash someone who is. I am curious to know what you do for humanity instead of just bashing someone who does so much.

Steve, why do you just assume that when I am helping to groom and help out the elderly that I am choking them on religion? When I am with them I am there to help them and visit with them. Some of them seldom ever have anyone to just talk to. It's their special time when I listen to them, and help them. They love to talk about their families and life experiences. I have learned a lot by just listening.
I also think it is wonderful that you help out in Africa. I would love to do something like that. I'm not a doctor or nurse but I would love to pitch in anyway I could be of help, please just point me in the right direction and I would love to help. I'm not afraid of hard work.
I do send money, but I've heard in the news lately that the money most times doesn't get there. I now donate through Oprahs Angel Network I believe her supplies do get there.
It ripped my guts out when I saw the program where they said that men with HIV would rape babies because they thought they would be cured after that.
I'm not an educator, just a worker that would be willing to help anyway I can. Please just let me know where to start.

Was I bashing Robertson's humanitarian efforts? No.

Please put a dollar amount on amnesty for the things Pat Robertson said, Auntie Brenda. is $500M what it takes to get up there and speak for god and not have anyone call you on it? Or can I get by with a lot less than that?

And if so, can we go by percentages of income? $500M since 1978? What percentage of his total income is that over the last 27 years?

And if you want to help, Auntie Brenda, like you say you do, you'll support what science has to say about AIDs prevention, and challenge those religious types who speak at odds to good, solid science (yes, this means advocating condom use).

You implied that because Pat Robertson has done some good, he has some "well-earned" right to speak utter bullshit without any kind of recrimination. Yes or no?

No, that is not what I said. First I didn't say he had done some good, I said he has done a lot of good. Far more good than mistakes.
I also said that unless you have done the equivalent to his humanitarian efforts that you shouldn't be bashing him. You are tearing apart all Christians for the misguided words he spoke. You are setting aside any good that he has done and focusing only on the mistakes he has made. You disagree with him and want to critique him that is your right, but to tear him apart and throw out the many good things he has done isn't right.

The interesting Christian setup of sex only within marriage and also marriage only for those you see fit creates a sub-population to which the Christian message is: don't ever have sex that means anything to you or is any enjoyment to you.

That's not true. I believe that sex in marriage means more to you because there is a commiment there. I believe that sport sex isn't meaningful, it is just getting off, and sex should always be meaningful and of course enjoyment or why would you bother?

It's one thing to decide celibacy for yourself, or abstinence for yourself, but quite another to dictate legal or even cultural terms to others.

We teach celibacy and abstinence for ourselves and our family. We do not however dictate legal or cultural terms to others.
When Jesus spoke of this in the Bible he wasn't doing so because he didn't want us to enjoy sex or have sex. He was giving us a blueprint for a healthier life, less stress.
Sex within marriage, then there is no long list of past lovers wherein the split up was usually painful, there is added heartach, dissapointment, anger, frustration, depression, unwanted children, or children where one parent is absent.
With marriage there is a life commitment. It's healthier in the long run, you can side step a lot of hurt and damage. Heartach, dissapointment, anger, frustration, depression equal hurt and damage.
It's just a blueprint for a healthier life. It's not a guarantee. It's striving for the best you can be. It's like guidelines, do it this way and your chances are higher for a healthier and higher quality of life.
Do it the other way and your risk factor is higher for an unhealthy and lower quality of life.

"we do not however dictate legal or cultural terms to others"

Brenda! Isn't that like saying, "we don't burn crosses, we light them". Just an anology, I am not implying anything about your racial awareness. though i am stating that on a cultural level religion is a little ingrained, so in fact you certainly do have an intention to dictate..

However when you suggest that sex with one person for life, and marriage as we traditionally know it in this country, are "blueprints for a healthier life" that a bit of a stretch isn't it? With divorce in the upwards of the fifty per cent range, and most men and women demonstrating that whether they desire monogomy or not, most don't live that reality, I'm not seeing the landslide of positives.

You say that sex outside of marriage leads to heartache, pain, anger and depression. You may be accurate in some cases, but it is not a cause and effect relationship, as those specific responses are present in all aspects of life. As well, you seem to believe they must be avoided at all costs. Those same negative experiences, if one has the capacity for self awareness, can bring insight. But I suppose insight leads to the concept of empowering a sense of free will, and that is a concept that religion tends to be rather allergic to doesn't it?

When I stated that you no doubt preach to those you help I was refering to the central requirement that you spread the gospel to all you can, whenever the oppurtunity is present. The want of such teaching is never a factor. So would I be wrong in assuming via your last statement that you do not follow those requirements when you do the work that you spoke of?

Whwere can you atart to help? If you are serious with your statement that you would like to help end the HIV crisis, you could become vocal in the areas of acceptance of sexual diversity, empowering womens autonomy in Africa, condom distribution and promotion as a first line defence against HIV, earlier sexual health discussions in public schools with an emphasis on the range of healthy diversity present in human sexuality, and lastly push for a cultural change in the way that religion equates sexual activity with sin, disease, and ill morals. They are not always analogous. In fact in all cases they speak specifically to the individuals involved, and no one else.

Those are some areas that you could assist in. If that is not possible to reconcile with your beliefs, then you have no place in the field of HIV prevention and would in fact be counterproductive. As president Bush is. So I'll leave it with you.

Steve

Brenda! Isn't that like saying, "we don't burn crosses, we light them". Just an anology, I am not implying anything about your racial awareness. though i am stating that on a cultural level religion is a little ingrained, so in fact you certainly do have an intention to dictate..

However when you suggest that sex with one person for life, and marriage as we traditionally know it in this country, are "blueprints for a healthier life" that a bit of a stretch isn't it? With divorce in the upwards of the fifty per cent range, and most men and women demonstrating that whether they desire monogomy or not, most don't live that reality, I'm not seeing the landslide of positives.

You say that sex outside of marriage leads to heartache, pain, anger and depression. You may be accurate in some cases, but it is not a cause and effect relationship, as those specific responses are present in all aspects of life. As well, you seem to believe they must be avoided at all costs. Those same negative experiences, if one has the capacity for self awareness, can bring insight. But I suppose insight leads to the concept of empowering a sense of free will, and that is a concept that religion tends to be rather allergic to doesn't it?

No, there is no intention to dictate. The New Testament writings are to the church, they are NOT to the unbelievers. Jesus came to earth as a man, he walked the walk. He showed us by example. He gave us a blueprint for a healthier life. Just as his teachings on sex, there is also teachings on marriage to keep your marriage healthy. There are teachings on family to keep your family healthy. There are teachings on all aspects of living to live a healthier more productive life. We were all given a free will to choose. The blueprint is there we make the choice to follow or not to follow.

Example:

Your doctor gives you a healthy diet to follow for a healthier life. He tells you what to eat for health and what to avoid eating so that you don't end up bringing on sickness to your body. Now not everyone is going to have a healthier life by eating the healthy foods but they will have a higher chance of health with the healthier foods.
On the other hand not everyone will bring sickness on by eating all the unhealthy foods. But their risk of sickness is higher with the unhealthy foods.
All have the free will of choice in what they eat. To some eating the unhealthy foods is what they want because it's what taste good to them and the risks involved are worth it to them to have what they want.
The doctor has given the blueprint in regard to healthy food. But he doesn't have the authority to demand you eat according to the blueprint given because you have a free will.

Christ teachings are not allergic to free will, he is the one that empowered us with a free will. Please do not assume to know what I believe must be avoided at all costs. I also have a free will that I exercise. If you want to know how I believe or feel about any specific subject please ask me don't just assume.

When I stated that you no doubt preach to those you help I was refering to the central requirement that you spread the gospel to all you can, whenever the oppurtunity is present. The want of such teaching is never a factor. So would I be wrong in assuming via your last statement that you do not follow those requirements when you do the work that you spoke of?

Preaching to someone isn't always the way to spread the good news of God's love. I believe we are to spread the good news by our actions so that others will see something in us that they want. I also believe we are to pray for guidance of the Holy Spirit before talking to someone. The "want" is essential to the receiving, someone has to want to hear what you have to share. I think of the Holy Spirit as the comforter, guide and locator. He leads you to the person who is hurting and wanting to hear what you have to share. You live as an example and when the door of opportunity opens you share. If what you share isn't accepted it isn't because the person is just too hard hearted it is because I/we haven't waited on guidance and have struck out on our own without guidance. I never push it's just not my way. It's hard for me to approach a person, I am more comfortable helping someone and have always waited until someone ask me questions. Sometimes it has been what makes you so different? Then I am free to reply I am a Christian and I want to give back to others the love that has been given to me. I leave it at that, but when they want to here what I have to share they will ask me what does that mean? Then I share the message of salvation. If I were to push it would make people uncomfortable around me and I don't want anyone to feel that way. It is always best to let God's love shine through you. Then they will want what you have and ask how to get it.
So my answer to your question is yes I do practice what is required of me, just not in the way that some do, or the way that you assumed I might do.
Jesus never pushed himself on anyone. He preached to the multitudes but they were never cornered they came on their own accord to hear what he had to say.

Whwere can you atart to help? If you are serious with your statement that you would like to help end the HIV crisis, you could become vocal in the areas of acceptance of sexual diversity, empowering womens autonomy in Africa, condom distribution and promotion as a first line defence against HIV, earlier sexual health discussions in public schools with an emphasis on the range of healthy diversity present in human sexuality, and lastly push for a cultural change in the way that religion equates sexual activity with sin, disease, and ill morals. They are not always analogous. In fact in all cases they speak specifically to the individuals involved, and no one else.

Those are some areas that you could assist in. If that is not possible to reconcile with your beliefs, then you have no place in the field of HIV prevention and would in fact be counterproductive. As president Bush is. So I'll leave it with you.

I'm not a speaker, if I were to try to speak in front of a group of people I am sure I would be shaking so hard the words would not come out. I also don't speak the dialect of Africa. I am a hard worker and can follow directions so there must be some type of physical help I can give. I don't see where there would be any conflict with my beliefs in helping in the prevention of HIV. Nor would there be any conflict in my beliefs in helping with the care of those afflicted by HIV.

Auntie wrote: You are tearing apart all Christians for the misguided words he spoke.

and yet in the original entry, i wrote:
Now, before I launch into this, I should put Pat in some perspective. He's not the only Christian who does this sort of thing. Many other Christians climb their bully pulpits every Sunday and remind their fellow Christians that heathens and the profane should fear the Christians. Not only fear the Wrath of God, but fear, in earthly and malevolent ways, Christians.

And to also be fair, there are an enormous number of Christians, who, despite the hubris and pomposity of claiming to know their Creator's wishes in the first place, are really rather decent, mild, meek, helpful people.

You were letting Pat Robertson off the hook because you figured he scored some karma points with other efforts. If not, then why aren't you just agreeing that what he said was wrong, that he has a trackrecord of trying to speak for god and blame the godless, and leave it at that?

There are christians out there, auntie brenda, who would tell you you're going to hell for even considering condoms. You know it and I know it.

Auntie wrote:
No, there is no intention to dictate. The New Testament writings are to the church, they are NOT to the unbelievers.

Hoody, who haunts here every now and again, would call you a Tyrannical Moral Relativist, Auntie Brenda. he's called me that for saying exactly this kind of thing.

To people like him, there is but One Truth. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not, it applies to everyone because it's the One Truth.

To even suggest that the truth changes, or that one person's truths may not be another person's truths makes you a dreaded *M* *R* *T*.

"I don't see where there would be any conflict with my beliefs in helping in the prevention of HIV. Nor would there be any conflict in my beliefs in helping with the care of those afflicted by HIV".

You may be right, but then that would be contingent upon you going directly against the teachings of your church, since the majority of people with HIV in this country are gay or bisexual men. I'm pressuming you have no issue with the second leading demographic in HIV infections, Africasn American women, like many right wing church belief structures do.

So it wouldn't conflict at all with your beliefs that there would naturally be oppurtunity through your work in the field, when through your words or actions, a support of homosexuality and its experience in an American family would need to be affirmed? Because if the response was the rather incongruous "love the sinner hate the sin", I'd say in the context of a helping relationship that's a very cruel form of bigotry.

If you are able to support gay men as equal in all aspects of life to yourself, in so far as freedoms and right to access institutions of society, then yes, there would be much for you to do. Do you think it is possible, is the question.

Steve

I am not speaking of dollar amounts or percentages. The foundation that I previously spoke of was only one of Mr. Robertson's many ways of helping humanity. You assume that all the money that comes into his organization goes to him, it doesn't. Did you know that Mr. Robertson gave up a successful legal career at a great sacrifice to him and his family to become a minister? He had many long hard lean years, there was a time that he and his wife survived on beans only while starting out in the ministry. God has blessed him for his faithfulness. It is not my place to chastise/or publicly hold him up to ridicule when he gets frustrated and his mouth gets the best of him. He is God's anointed and God will deal with him when he feels he is/has done wrong. When I finally get to Heaven I want to hear God say "Welcome Home my good an faithful servant." I don't want to hear him say "What were you thinking Brenda when you chastised my anointed? Is that what I asked you to do?" I will deal with my own anointed because I alone know what job I asked him to do. Your job was to help and love the needy as I asked you to do."

Of course some people do not have the extra money to contribute, but we are to give out of our own need. I'm speaking of giving of yourself to help others. Giving of yourself or money in anyway that you are able to do. Maybe for you it would be just taking the time to speak to a homeless person, asking him or her if you could take them to lunch and just listen to them. Treat them as a person of value. It's easy to help those around you that you know, like, or love. But the real blessing comes when you take yourself out of your comfort zone to help someone. Do you realize that a single act of kindness and giving of your time could change a persons life?

Example:

A few years back I was blessed with winning a very large amount of money. To me it wasn't money I had earned, but a blessing and it was my duty to bless others also. I kept 15% after taxes to put into my retirement account. The remaining 85% I divided up in amounts to bless other's with, of course within those others were some people I loved and cared about. There were 3 people that I knew of that really needed help, yet said 3 people had really hurt me or betrayed me in times past. I "said" I had forgiven them, yet when in a position that I could help them I didn't want to because I still remembered the pain they had caused me. I had a dream one night during that time when someone who I loved but was gone spoke to me and said there is no blessing in helping those you love and care about because that is expected of you. The blessing is to also help those 3 who hurt you so badly. I woke up with a different attitude and I sent the money to those 3. All 3 of those people went through some heavy life changes and today all 3 are very successful and giving back to humanity on a scale that I can only dream about.

Regarding the condoms I don't understand why you would think I wouldn't recommend using condoms?
Of course I would even though from the documentaries I have seen they said that the men refuse to use the condoms thus the spreading continues. The women aren't in a position to demand that condoms are used, the men just beat them and do as they please. I am speaking of the problem in Africa. But I also advocate the use of condoms for anyone who is sexually active.

As a Christian I do believe that abstinence is best, and that sex should be in the confines of marriage. I also believe that it is my responsibility as a parent, not the governments, to discuss sex with my child. I have always worked for open dialogue with my daughter the result being she has always felt free to discuss and ask me anything. Often times bringing friends home and asking questions for them. It is my job to teach her my beliefs, but the ultimate choice is hers. The day did come that she became sexually active, she discussed it with me. I didn't condemn her or get upset with her, it is her life and her private business. I did remind her that she needed to be safe, condoms, and birth control. She assured me she is being safe. I am just thankful that she didn't become active while still in high school. As you know, boys/men never outgrow "share and tell", and if there is any oops accident, the girl is always blamed.

The church is also very vocal regarding homosexuality. But I have read no scripture in the Bible where Jesus condemned homosexuals. There are many times where the disciples wanted to lash out at people for different reasons regarding people not following what Jesus was teaching them, yet Jesus stopped them and told them not to, and he again reminded the disciples of what he wanted them to do (what he wanted the disciples to do). Often times people get caught up in their zeal and do and say things that Christ didn't authorize them to do.
Let me tell you if my child came home and told me she was gay it wouldn't alter my love for her one tiny bit nor would it diminish the pride and admiration I feel for her. I would of course grieve the loss of future grandchildren that I so long and desire, but that grief wouldn't kill me, and it would eventually subside.

Now is there anything else that you assume about me and would like to question me about? I'm not as articulate as you but I will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

I have never claimed that Pat Robertson had no right to speak whatever the hell he wanted to. I pointed out the hypocrisy in his anti-christian sentiments and his utter hubris in thinking he can speak for Infinity.

I have never grilled you about your humanitarian efforts, nor have I ever said you had no right to speak your mind. As a human being with the desire to communicate, you need nothing else to validate your right to speak.

The content of that speech, however, is fair game for MY right to speak my mind.

You implied that because Pat Robertson has done some good, he has some "well-earned" right to speak utter bullshit without any kind of recrimination. Yes or no?

The interesting Christian setup of sex only within marriage and also marriage only for those you see fit creates a sub-population to which the Christian message is: don't ever have sex that means anything to you or is any enjoyment to you.

It's one thing to decide celibacy for yourself, or abstinence for yourself, but quite another to dictate legal or even cultural terms to others.

Brenda,

All I have to go on is your word, and I take it at face value. Thank you for having the neccesary insight to look at a belief structure and see the elements that are helpful, as well as those that are not. I only wish more of the people who make up the church in this country were able to do the same.

Steve

You were letting Pat Robertson off the hook because you figured he scored some karma points with other efforts. If not, then why aren't you just agreeing that what he said was wrong, that he has a trackrecord of trying to speak for god and blame the godless, and leave it at that?

I do agree that what he said was wrong, and that it isn't the first time he lacked wisdom in his words. He does not speak for God, and he does at times use the hell, fire, and damnation approach to try and scare people to God. I was raised on the hell, fire, and damnation sermons but it lost it's effectiveness by the time I reached 17. I guess my mind just clicks off now and I don't hear it anymore. It used to be a sin to dance,and go to movies. Actually just about everything was a sin. But that wasn't from God, it was man's chuch doctrine. Which has changed because going to movies and dancing are no longer considered a sin. Now that I am older and more mature in my relationship with God I do not let church doctrine dictate what I do. I only take to heart Jesus's teachings, only his words do I follow. You see Jesus came to free us of our sins and to free us of the old law of the Old Testament. We are no longer bound by the old law.
All that said I still feel it is wrong to rip Mr. Robertson apart publicaly. He is just a man who makes mistakes but also does much good. God will deal with him when he lacks wisdom in his words.

There are christians out there, auntie brenda, who would tell you you're going to hell for even considering condoms. You know it and I know it.

There may be christians out there that would like to tell me something like that, but they would never have the nerve to say it to my face. I wish someone would try because I would be quick to inform them that once upon a time dancing and going to movies was sure to send us to hell too.

Auntie wrote:
No, there is no intention to dictate. The New Testament writings are to the church, they are NOT to the unbelievers.

Hoody, who haunts here every now and again, would call you a Tyrannical Moral Relativist, Auntie Brenda. he's called me that for saying exactly this kind of thing.

To people like him, there is but One Truth. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not, it applies to everyone because it's the One Truth.

To even suggest that the truth changes, or that one person's truths may not be another person's truths makes you a dreaded *M* *R* *T*.

God's word does not change, Jesus said that his word is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
However, church doctrine does change. The Bible was inspired by God. Church doctrine is not inspired of God, it is inspired by man. I don't worship man I worship God.
I was raised in the church, but when I hit my twenties I stopped going to church, I felt they were all hypocrites. From the time I hit puberty they constantly attacked me. I dressed wrong, I talked wrong, I walked wrong, I wore too much make up to make myself look older (I only wore mascare and lip gloss) My mother was even talked to about the way I dressed. My mother told them she made all my clothes, what else could she do to make me look younger and hide my assets? I developed early there was no hiding it. I stopped going to church just as soon as I was old enough to say enough is enough.
When I hit my thirties I realized that I was allowing a group of people to keep me from my relationship with God because I felt those Christians were hypocrites. I needed my relationship with God, he wasn't the one who had been hurting me it was the hypocrites. To this day I have never let anyone come between me and my relationship with God. When I work with new believers I always teach them that they are to follow God's teachings not mans. Even when they are listening to a sermon in church they are to follow along with the scripture in the Bible and if the pastor strays from the scripture the scripture is what they are to believe not what the pastor says if he has strayed.
A few years back my former pastors wife came to visit my mother, we all went to lunch, my mother, the pastors wife, my daughter, and a lady who worked for me at the time. During the course of lunch and all of the pastors wife insunations regarding how bad I used to be, my daughter and the woman who worked for me could stand it no longer and they both spoke up and informed her that I was a good woman and they had never known me to do anything bad or unkind. I realized it was time for me to speak up and I asked the pastors wife just what was it that I did that was so wrong. I just don't get it, your constantly talking about how bad I was yet your son and my brother were not only doing drugs but selling them at the time, yet you praise them constantly. What did I do that was so bad? She said you were just so pretty and could get any boy/man that you wanted and you knew it. I just sat there waiting to hear the rest but that was it. I looked at her and said that's it? That's all you can think of that I did that was bad? All those years of being hounded and it was all about the way I looked? All I could do was laugh and say now isn't that just the most stupid silly thing? I was tempted to ask her to go to a movie but I didn't because I didn't want to act as ugly as she had.
This same pastor's wife and her husband (he's deceased now) really used to be down on gays. They exposed a missionary who was gay and his ministry was destroyed because of it. He had been a missionary to Africa, he was a good man who had done so much in Africa. His ministry and life were destroyed. They had claimed to be his friend and were only correcting him out of love for his own good. I was very young when this happened but I remember it all very well.
Said pastors wife and her husband were very vocal against gays. But God has a way of allowing you to experience from that which you hurt others with in order to correct you. Their only granddaughter whom they adore is gay, and her and her partner have adopted children into their family. The pastor's wife is no longer vocal against gays, but is now an advocate for same sex couples and their children.

God's truth never changes it stays the same, he loves us and wants us to have life more abundantly.
Man is always changing just as his doctrine is. The changing of doctrine is most often confusing, and God is not the author of confusion.

God's word tells us this:

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future.
Jeremiah 29:11

Thank you for all of that, Auntie Brenda.

I wish the good christians like you were as vocal and commanded such large audiences at Pat Robertson.

I also wish I could turn a deaf ear to the crap that Pat Robertson dishes out, but I know first-hand the effects of what he says to the unthinking out there.

If you are able to support gay men as equal in all aspects of life to yourself, in so far as freedoms and right to access institutions of society, then yes, there would be much for you to do. Do you think it is possible, is the question.

Steve

Steve when you say follow the teachings of my church you are talking about the doctrine of my church right?

I never follow doctrine when it is in contrast to the scripture of the Bible. Doctrine is man made, scripture in the Bible is inspired of God.

There is no scripture in the Bible of Jesus condemning homosexuals. Jesus teaches us to love one another, to help those in need and to hold each other up in prayer.

There is no conflict in my beliefs that would prevent me from helping in the prevention of HIV.
Conflict in doctrine does not affect my beliefs. I am not ruled by doctrine.

Thank you for all of that, Auntie Brenda.

I wish the good christians like you were as vocal and commanded such large audiences at Pat Robertson.

I also wish I could turn a deaf ear to the crap that Pat Robertson dishes out, but I know first-hand the effects of what he says to the unthinking out there.

We may not command large audiences but we are very vocal within our churches and with the new people we meet. Things are changing as we direct those who are causing the confusion within the church to get real with their relationship with God. Once their relationship with God is real you will not see or hear of them condemning and hurting others because that kind of behaviour is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus.

The trifecta has been hit!!