Learn From It

That's rude. Who the hell are you?

what the hell are you talking about?

It was commentary on the current drive to make everyone normal, everyone the same.

if it doesn't matter who you are, why don't you identify yourself? but it does matter to me, because hiding under a cloak of anonymity lets you act without any responsiblity, or without any decency, politesse or tact.

I guarantee you if we had at least been introduced at some point, you wouldn't have charged in here with "what the hell are you talking about?" and instead would have kindly asked me for further explanation.

Which parts of "most of the world" and drawing the turkey with your hand and coloring only inside the lines also applies specifically to the Religious Right?

That said, you don't find liberals bashing any heterodoxy. It's the christians in this country that are the homo(doxy) lovers.

Just to continue the debate a bit more...

It was the paragraph about sacred sperm etc that steered me to the conclusion that you were referring to religious right..

regarding "the current drive" to make everyone the same, I think that it is an unfortunate result of the current corporate/media saturated era that people tend to dress/eat/recreate in the same manner and it is sad that a lot of different cultures are collapsing into a global culture (Starbucks in Paris?) but I guess that is progress and if the French want Starbucks, well then the French will have Starbucks. Unfortunately I think that the drive to make everyone "normal" isn't current but has been around since mankind existed. Isn't that why the Pilgrims came to this country in the first place? Isn't that why various religious/ethnic/people of differnt philospophies have been persecuted since the beginning of time?

I think we're on the same side of the fence here and that the quest to be an individual (apart from the norm) is something that is an ongoing struggle. I think I differ from you in that I inferrd from your writing that for some reason art/music/literature suffers or fails. I believe the contrary- that art/music/literature/science has flourished in the face of these obstacles and that progressive thought has triumphed overall. Otherwise we would still believe that the world was flat, a king was a proper ruler, slave labor was permissible, women didn't have the ability to be able to cast a ballot and a Jackson pollock painting isn't art.

I think maybe you might have a nostalgia for a time that never was. I think that it will be an ongoing struggle for people who are outside what is considered the norm but I think that those people who declare themselves individuals (the majority be damned!) are those who will keep facilitating change despite the odds.

As far as your comment about liberals (which I am) not bashing heterodoxy, I think it's all relative. I think that plenty of self proclaimed liberals practice an inclusive policy on a theoretical level but in reality one does see an awful lot of gay men (I'm gay) running around in Abercrombie & Fitch and dismissive of those who aren't.

At the end of the day I think that individualism and progressive thought are alive and well and that those who are creating change aren't worrying about those telling them to draw in the lines. They are just drawing what they want, critics be damned.

ps- if we had been introduced, I probably would have said "what the hell are you talking about?" just the same

ps- if we had been introduced, I probably would have said "what the hell are you talking about?" just the same

LOL. And that probably would have made you instantly likeable.

I wasn't talking about art, music, literature failing per se, but rather that the appreciation of all those things has become more and more limited to explicitly stated wording, neo-Realism in art, and music that doesn't make any Big Statements.

As far as nostalgia? no. I am merely pointing out a trend that gets more and more dangerous, in my opinion, every day.

If this continues, we'll start to see bookburnings en masse again.

Hmmm...

I stand behind my previous posts.

I don't think the appreciation of any of those things are failing. There's plenty of good literature (The Line of Beauty, a novel by gay author Alan Hollinghurst, won the Booker Prize in England- it was quite controversial), art and music being made that makes Big Statements and is appreciated and is influencing culture in general (I'm willing to cite more examples if you need them). If you're surveying the average Walmart shopper, well then "The Apprentice" and Britney Spears might appear to be the cultural giants of our time but, let's face it, powerful art that changes culture and thought is rarely embraced by the masses at the time that it's produced.

As far as the Nazi comment goes- it's kind of a cheap trick, no? I too am concerned about the political situation in this country but come on, I think that there are plenty of people in this country that are fighting this type of extremism- just look at the recent fight in congress to oppose Bush's recent nominations.

The sky is falling mentality never solved these problems. I'm not saying we shouldn't know our enemy but at some point you have to stop bellyaching and draw outside the lines (to use your analogy)

ps- I never asked nor need to be liked.

I made no Nazi comments.

I never said the sky was falling.

I'm not an absolutist. I know these things go in cycles, but part of the reason that they go in cycles is that when things get too scary, people start to fight hard to prevent it from going over the edge.

You think most americans give a flying fuck what prizes a book wins? No, books are meant to be bought in support of ideology, major corporations only go on sure-thing fiction writers, and thanks the deregulation, other giant corporations get to own huge percentages of any given market's airwaves.

Have you seen the literalism that abounds these days? "10 word answers". that's all anyone gets. sound bites and quick edits.

You do know that people have burned books en masse in the past, right? Or is that just one of those things i'm supposedly nostalgic about that never really happened?

refer to my Walmart comment in the previous post regarding book prizes.

I think you're overgeneralizing in terms what gets published or the literalism that abounds these days. My point is that regarldless of what Time Warner is trying to push down our throats, there is plenty of challenging, alternative stuff out there but it is our reponsibility to find it not necessarily theirs to give it to us.If the average American want to be a sheep, well then let them- it's a free country. Again the work that changes social thought in general most often isn't the material that's marketed to the masses.

I'll end my side of of this discussion by bringing it back to the beginning- your post just didn't make sense.

If the average American want to be a sheep, well then let them

That's entirely where we disagree. Vehemently so, on my part.

My post may not have made sense—to YOU. I'm sorry that it didn't, but there's nothing i can do about it.

Other people have read it, got it, and loved it.

If the average American want to be a sheep, well then let them- it's a free country.

You forgot the last part of that sentence. The rules you want applied to your side must be applied theirs.

Uh, gee. I just thought the post was kind of depressing. Um. But I'll just say that and go back to my cats.

P.S. Thanks for buying all those Blogshares!

The last part of the sentence is extraneous, chris, at least to the point i am making.

Sure, people *can* think what they want, but when do you stop them from doing their thinking in ways that result in book burnings and book bannings? Just sit back in SF or West Hollywood or Chelsea and do nothing?

And see? Ted understood it. it IS depressing.

Although book burnings is not part of your original post please note passage from my previous post

"I think that it will be an ongoing struggle for people who are outside what is considered the norm but I think that those people who declare themselves individuals (the majority be damned!) are those who will keep facilitating change despite the odds."

Instead of just sobbing about the world not being the way you want it- go out and facilitate change and don't wait for permission or validation to do it.

I don't think

Are you saying you see no trend in any given direction?

Where am I sobbing? waiting for permission? validation?

You assume an awful lot.

didn't mean to be rude but your entry just doesn't make sense to me. I assume that you're making some comment on the religious right or on catholicism or something else but the jist of your entry seems to be because orthodox religious belief is so rigid as a result literature, music etc fails. When has that sort of extemism been the driving force of forward moving art, thought, literature etc? Surely not in the last 400 years or so. Why look to religious zealots and try to find something subtle or beautiful? I think you're giving them way too much credit. If that's what they believe- well then let them have it- who needs their validation anyway? I'm guessing that is what you were talking about in your entry.

ps- what difference does it make who I am?

Ugh. All that aside...

I disagree with the last line.

"Art" doesn't fail - most times, we fail "art."

The opportunity to appreciate and express always exists, but too many of us chose to avoid the challenge out of complacency or frustration, creatives or otherwise.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

From the perspective of the religious crazies and the cultural normalcy police, music art and words fail for THEM.

Thanks for this. It's important.