Aquinas, Gödel and Occam, Oh My!
It's amazing to me the lengths that Christians (well, Catholics, insofar as they are still Christians) go in order to tell you that science doesn't matter and that it doesn't come close to capturing the essence of human (and divine) existence.
I agree! But the point at which they make a statement like this is the point that they also start trotting out so-called science to back up their belief constructs. Unfortunate. This is what happens when the Little Church in the Dell comes to the Big City and tries an extreme makeover on society by attempting to harness political machinery.
What ever happened to the Substance of things Hoped For and the Evidence of Things Not Seen? I, for one, think that there's always room for a little (or a lot) of faith. It's dogma that wears me down. Think they're the same thing? Think again. Faith only becomes dogma when someone else tries to tell you the color and timbre and texture your faith is supposed to be. And where it's supposed to be aimed.
And how you're supposed to get out in the world and make more of the Faithful, either through procreation or through propagation of that Faith. Either way, they want missionary positions filled (groan, sorry, I know).
I have faith in my family. Faith that they are there for me when I need them. Faith that I will set aside whatever occupies the fore if my family needs me. Faith that my love for my partner is for life. Faith that he loves me in kind. Faith that I am capable of trust. Trust in things like love and life and Good Will.
I also have a certitude that there really is no such thing as Altruism, but that broad-enough and indirect-enough and long-term-enough self-interest is indistinguishable from altruism.
Frank Herbert once wrote: "'What do you despise?' By this are you truly known."
So what do I despise? I despise closed minds. I despise liars and those who take pleasure in the misfortune of others. I despise the self-imposed ignorance of those who short their own brainpower in favor of their religion. I despise xenophobia, especially the kind that masquerades as love.
Most of all, I despise hypocrisy and duplicity, and the ignorance that seems to generate both.
Well, that was fun, but I never fully agreed with Frank Herbert on that. It never allowed for creative acts, for things beyond just neutral.
I might suggest that for the lion's share of Christians (no pun intended), grasping at Jesus Christ is a desperate attempt to equalize all the individuals in a given society so that all the bonafide special and talented individuals are lost in that old "we're all special in God's eyes" bromide. We continue to increasingly celebrate the mediocre while becoming increasingly paranoid about those with wild talents.
I abide the ideal of freedom of religion, so long as the set of religions also includes the empty set (i.e., freedom to practice no religion or faith). It's a natural tendency for the dogmatic to frame and label the world according to their own carefully constructed belief systems. Their identities, individual and collective, are tied up in requiring boundaries around things, including their own god.
Well, my identity is tied up in other things. You won't find a satisfactory theism-relative label for me.
Forgive the crass dipping into boolean logic, but here's where I stand:
- If there is a god, she's outside of our closed system and cannot be knowable by any measure.
- If there is not a god, I still cannot escape our closed system and, like any closed system according to Gödel, there are unreachable truths AND unreachable falsehoods.
Kinda boring, I know. But this is where good old Occam comes in with his Famous Razor: the world around us—if you avoid the overweening assumption that the universe is just God's Terrarium—becomes a magical place.
With Theism, you get "god did it". Without assuming Theism, you get a wonderment that's good for the soul.
Comments
I have a friend who believes that God is a black, Jewish, lesbian in a wheelchair and sometimes I like to visualize the faces of extreme Christian fundamentalists die and finally stand before God.
Personally, I see a lot of similarities between some of the modern fundamentalists and the religious leaders of the time who persecuted Jesus. They argued and sought to put Jesus to death over such literal, and seemingly by today's standards, minor interpretations of law.
I actually read an interesting editorial by a writer and artist in New Mexico. She says she is no longer a Christian, but instead a follower of Christ. I think that says a lot and I've begun thinking the same thing about myself.
Posted by: Jef | November 23, 2004 06:32 AM
Aren't you ASSUMING that our system is closed? Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that this IS just "god's terrarium." If he DID exist (still just supposing), wouldn't he have the freedom to intervene in it, if he wanted to, maybe put a few "signs" around it to show the worms they weren't in ultimate control after all? Just a thought.
Posted by: Searcher | November 23, 2004 11:13 AM
By definition, it's a closed system if you're in it.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but are you positing that god likes to mindfuck his creations, just for the hell of it?
Posted by: GodOfBiscuits | November 23, 2004 11:53 AM
In your example, it's not a closed system.
This, from Gödel, Escher, Bach:
The other metaphorical analogue to Gödel's Theorem which I find provocative suggests that ultimately, we cannot understand our own mind/brains ... Just as we cannot see our faces with our own eyes, is it not inconceivable to expect that we cannot mirror our complete mental structures in the symbols which carry them out? All the limitative theorems of mathematics and the theory of computation suggest that once the ability to represent your own structure has reached a certain critical point, that is the kiss of death: it guarantees that you can never represent yourself totally.
It's the unknowability I'm talking about. It's not about "I DON'T see any god", it's "if s/he's really god, i CANNOT see him/her"
Posted by: GodOfBiscuits | November 24, 2004 07:23 AM
Interesting that Green Flash visits the site, then immediately after—and from the same IP address—Searcher visits and comments.
This is what comes from taking no responsibility for one's self.
Posted by: GodOfBiscuits | November 24, 2004 08:38 AM
Hm. Red herring. Your long quote was "provocative" indeed, but I don't see how it bears on the topic. Yes, we are unable to understand our mental processes and structures completely. We are limited and imperfect creatures. Uh-huh. Good point. But if they are talking about "the limitative theorems of mathematics and the theory of computation," how does that bear on the existence or non-existence of god, who cannot be reduced to a mathematical equation. There IS other evidence of spiritual realities, including a possible god, but you won't see it if your nose if buried in a math book. You have to look beyond "theories of computation" to see outside the proverbial "terrarium." If I understand your quote correctly, he/they said, in effect, that mathematics has its limitations. OK. We know that. But mathematics doesn't describe all of reality. There's something more. Hm? If you limit yourself to admittedly limited mathematics, you're missing a lot to say the least.
(Yes, I'm a friend of "Green Flash" and he sometimes lets me use his computer. That's OK, isn't it? Does that bear somehow on what I'm saying? (I'm sorry if you felt betrayed or deceived--that wasn't my intention.) He has his opinions and convictions and I have mine. Can't you just address our points and questions without changing the subject?)
Posted by: Searcher | November 24, 2004 11:56 AM
Well, if a spider, for example, falls into a terrarium that he can't climb out of 'cause the walls are too slick, I'll admit that he's IN it, but the terrerium itself isn't necessarily a closed system by that fact. Or is there a part of the definition of "closed system" I don't understand. No, I don't mean to guess WHY some creator-god (if there is such a being) might intervene in his/her/its creation, I'm merely suggesting that there MIGHT be a being out there who is bigger than we are, bigger than we can understand, but who might still want to help us out from time to time (if he(?) wanted to). For example, I could help my turtle if he got stuck, couldn't I? I hope I'm not getting you wrong, but it seems as if you're saying, "I don't SEE any 'god,' so as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't exist or has nothing to do with me." It just seems kind of narrow to me, that's all, as if there couldn't be anything of any importance "out there" that you don't already understand. Help me out if I'm all wet. (P.S. Sorry, I mis-typed my e-mail address on the last comment. It's right now.)
Posted by: Searcher | November 24, 2004 12:49 PM
"Searcher", you never responded to emails.
Send me an email, demonstrating that the address you're providing is valid, or you don't get to continue commenting.
Anyone not willing to own their opinions doesn't deserve the stage.
Posted by: GodOfBiscuits | November 25, 2004 12:01 PM
Sorry, I don't check my email as often as I should, I guess. I did read it this morning and sent a reply.
Posted by: Searcher | November 26, 2004 04:32 AM