Learn From It

GoB: I can't figure out what all this stuff about "hate" is about. I'm a Catholic, and will not presume to speak for Protestant doctrines, but the Church forbids hating people. It makes a distinction between the person as a free moral agent made in the image and likeness of God, and the sins he freely chooses to commit. Perhaps you've heard the saying, "love the sinner, but hate the sin." Well it's true. We're all sinners. Every layman, priest, bishop and pope is/was a sinner for whom Christ shed His blood on the cross. The pope is all too aware of his sins, for example, and confesses them every week. Condemnation is a management issue (God is management). I'm just in sales. My job is to spread the truth to the best of my understanding and ability (with God's grace). If other people don't like what I say, that's their problem. It doesn't bother me. I might have made mistakes in my presentation, and I'd try to do better next time. But the truth doesn't depend on me. Truth simply is, and cannot change. Only our understanding of the truth changes. (But I digress. Sorry.) I do not judge or condemn you, nor does anyone else I know who has been following our exchanges, and we certainly do not hate you. If we have been less than charitable to you or your other friends, please forgive us. Thank you.

"love the sinner, hate the sin" is the single biggest theological loophole of ALL TIME.

In my version of things, the truth changes all the time. Truth and understanding-of-the-truth are the same things.

The pope condemns homosexual "union" and behavior, completely ignoring the Truth of so many of our lives of love and commitment.

You can call it what you like, but declaring your ability to love and form real relationships as superior to mine simply by virtue of your chosen sexuality (hey, if you can claim mine is a choice, I can do the same towards you), you're being hateful. You're being judgmental, and calling yourself merely "less than charitable" is piling yet another insult on the body of insults you've amassed already.

If truth can change, then the word has no meaning and we might as well stop using it. You're confusing [objuctive] truth with [subjective] opinion. Truth is outside of us and independent of us. We can't create or change truth, only recognize it when we see it. (Or we can deny it, but we can't change it.) I did not say that my "ability to love and form real relationships as superior to" yours. I did not choose to be heterosexual. That is my natural state (and every other human being's--even yours), since God created our sexual organs for procreation, and to use them otherwise would be a perversion of their obvious design (like trying to dig a hole with a stapler). Homosexuality is not natural, as it serves no natural function. Some people may find pleasure in it, but pleasure is not the purpose of sex, but rather procreation. I am not passing judgement on you or anyone else. I'm merely stating the truth about human nature. If you disagree, that's your right. But your failure to recognize the truth does not change it.

Sorry, that's objective, not "objuctive."

You pompous ass.

You presume to know my sexuality?

You presume to tell the infertile straight people that the sex they have isn't real sex?

You presume to tell people who use contraception that the sex they have isn't real sex?

You presume to know that your own god's plan is that every individual in every species is "meant" to produce offspring?

You are one crazy wingnut.

No, I'm not presuming anything. People who are infertile through no fault of their own are not engaging in unnatural sex. Those who use artificial means of contraception are (that's why artificial contraception is also wrong). Every person is not required to reproduce. In fact virginity/celibacy is a great gift and can be used to great benfit for others. However, every person, whether celebate or sexually active, IS called to be OPEN to the POSSIBILITY of life. This is why artificial contraception, abortion, masterbation and homosexual acts are all wrong. I know this, beyond the reasonableness of it, because the Son of God (I think you said you were raised Catholic, so you should remember Him) established a Church that would speak in His name and with His authority until the end of time (Luke 10:16, Matt 16:15-19, Matt 28:18-20, John 21:15-17, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc.) Now, I understand that you reject the Bible, and that's OK. I'm not trying to "prove" anything to you. Merely demonstrating that there IS a basis for my beliefs. If Jesus established one Church and promised that it would not be destroyed or pass away, it must still exist somewhere. The only church that still teaches everything that Jesus and the apostles taught is the Catholic Church. Since I personally believe Jesus is who He says he is and believe what He taught, I am a Catholic. To be otherwise, as I understand things, would be to deny Jesus, and that I am personally not prepared to do. You are free to do anything you like. (But when you meet the God you deny after you die, there will be consequences for your choices.) So, yes, I say things I was taught by the Catholic Church. Who taught you the things YOU say? (Sorry if you still think I'm a "pompous ass" and "one crazy wingnut." That's your option.)

There's no basis for your beliefs--nor should there be--for anything related to your faith. The bible, the tradition of the catholic church, they're all based on the same presumption that has absolutely no basis in refutable fact.

Keep quoting the bible, but don't expect me to accept it as any authority.

Try arguing in the world beyond your dogma. It's a big world.

And just for the record, you're saying that Protestants are denying Jesus?

That's true, but as long as they are invincibly ignorant of that fact, i.e. they don't intend to deny Him, that error is not their fault and is not imputed to them as a sin.

Ignorance of the law IS an excuse? What if they're adamantly anti-Catholic and think the Catholics took a turn away from jesus a long time ago?

And I guess the Jews are going straight to hell? But they don't believe in a hell.

So maybe you're going to go to hell for not being successful in proselytizing them?

1. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in our secular legal system. But God DOES excuse for real ignorance because He reads the heart and knows if the person really DIDN'T know he was doing wrong, or if he was just "plugging his ears" when he was told and so SHOULD have known. If he had the opportunity to learn the truth, but didn't bother, he will be held accountable for that. Just how accountable, God knows. 2. The same applies to anti-Catholics. And if Jesus can forgive his executioners and those who called for His death, I can forgive anti-Catholics (yes, I know the topic of forgiveness is not mentioned in your comment). 3. Same for the Jews. (Those who die meritting hell, but don't believe in it, will be very surprised when they get there.) 4. God doesn't ask us to succeed, only to try (actual conversion, as I said before, is a management issue--I'm just in sales).

You're right; I frankly don't care that you damn me and that you might forgive me.

I want you to say flat out that out that Jews and other non-Catholics who are not ignorant of Catholicism need redemption.

C'mon, be brave.

Yes. Jews and other non-Catholics who are not ignorant of Catholicism need redemption. So do the ones who are ignorant of Catholicism. So do Catholics, both the ignorant and otherwise. Everyone. Me too. Everyone.

Nice dodge, Green Flash. I think you know what I meant.

let me restate it in that lowest-common-denominator speech that the dullardly literalist conservatives require:

BY VIRTUE of being a Jew or a non-Catholic, are they in need of redemption?

Put another way: say I'm a Jew and I'm well aware of catholic teachings and yet I reject them because of my own personal faith.

Am I going to hell if i'm not redeemed in your eyes?

You might consider this another "dodge," but how you appear "in my eyes" doesn't matter. I can't know what's really inside your head or heart, even if you tell me (you might not even know fully yourself). To use your example, a Jew may well believe he knows all about what the Catholic Church's teachings are. But his grasp of what he hears or reads is going to be colored or filtered by his paradigms (everybody has paradigms, and they serve a good purpose). He may say to himself "this is all contradictory nonsense," simply because he doesn't see how a given paradox can be reconciled. Also, as a Jew, he's been brought up with a particular view of who God is and how He operates in history, and he's probably heard a number of things about Christians and especially Catholics that might not be entirely true, etc., so he might not quite grasp what the Catholic doctrines REALLY mean. I would have no way of knowing. Even he would have no way of knowing, ultimately. Only the "God" who made him and understands him fully can know whether the Jew is going to wind up in hell or not. The Jew would just have to keep loving God and trusting in His mercy (we ALL need mercy) and doing the best he can. (This assumes, of course, that he cared about God in the first place. If not, why would he care?) If the Jew really WANTS to spend eternity with God, that will be worked out between him and God at the moment of his death. If he decides he'd rather spend eternity without God (the only alternative), that's what we call "hell." The job for Christians is to distribute enough information to the people with whom they come in contact to assist them in making the best possible choice, and we believe God told us to do this (I'm sure you probably disagree). And some Christans and some Catholics DEFINITELY get the message garbled, or worse. I hope I'm not one of them, but I might be. I'll have to answer for that one when my own time comes. So be it--(mercy, Lord!) (I hope nobody ends up choosing hell on my account.) And by the way, NOBODY ever goes to hell that doesn't freely choose it. God doesn't really "send" anyone to hell. Each soul chooses for him/herself where they go, and they all go willingly.

liberal republican do-gooder! i am gay and straight! i fuck women! and i love cock too! but pussy is nice as well. i am gay jesus! i fuck you!